Path Home Shows 2012 Show Archive January 2012 Show 1202 Dave Kohl Interview - Developing Rural Communities

Dave Kohl Interview - Developing Rural Communities

We visit with Dave Kohl, a noted economist and business strategist, to get his advice on the changing workplace.
Dave Kohl Interview - Developing Rural Communities

Dave Kohl and Rob McClendon

Show Dates

Show 1202: Dave Kohl Interview - Developing Rural Communities

Air date: January 8, 2012

 

Transcript

ROB MCCLENDON:  WELL WE CAN LOOK AT THE LATEST ECONOMIC NUMBERS ALL DAY LONG, BUT IT’S WHAT WE DO WITH THAT INFORMATION THAT CAN HELP EACH OF US SUCCEED IN TODAY’S RAPIDLY CHANGING ECONOMY.  NOW I SAT DOWN WITH DAVE KOHL, A NOTED ECONOMIST AND BUSINESS STRATEGIST, TO GET HIS ADVICE ON THE EVER-CHANGING WORKPLACE.

WELL DR KOHL, TO KNOW WHERE YOU’RE GOING, YOU PRETTY MUCHLY HAVE TO KNOW WHERE YOU’VE BEEN.  SO BEFORE WE START LOOKING OUT IN TWO THOUSAND AND TWELVE, TALK TO ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT TWO THOUSAND ELEVEN THAT BY ALL ACCOUNTS WAS A PRETTY TURBULENT ECONOMIC YEAR.

DAVE KOHL:  IT SURE WAS, AND IF YOU LOOK AT TWO THOUSAND ELEVEN, I WOULD SAY BOTH FOR THE U S ECONOMY AND FOR THE WORLD ECONOMY, WE CALL IT A SWISS CHEESE ECONOMY.  WE’VE GOT AREAS IN THE UNITED STATES WHERE THE ECONOMY IS DOING VERY WELL, PARTICULARLY IF IT’S RELATED TO AGRICULTURE OR OIL.  WHEREAS YOUR COASTAL ECONOMIES ARE REALLY STRUGGLING, AND CERTAIN AREAS IN THE MIDWEST ARE STRUGGLING.  BUT THE SAME THING IS HAPPENING WORLD WIDE.  AND SO, WHAT’S HAPPENING IS IT’S A BIGGER EVENT CALLED THE EMERGENCE OF THESE EMERGING NATIONS AND ALSO THE ECONOMIC MODERATION OF THE DEVELOPED COUNTRIES.  AND SO WHAT HAPPENS IS CERTAIN REGIONS PROSPER, OTHER REGIONS REALLY, REALLY STRUGGLE.

ROB:  WELL LET’S TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT SOME OF THOSE EMERGING COUNTRIES.  HOW MUCH SHOULD WE HERE RIGHT IN THE HEARTLAND OF AMERICA BE CONCERNED WITH THE GLOBAL ECONOMY?

KOHL:  THAT’S EXACTLY CORRECT, AND IF YOU LOOK AT IT, THE BRITS, THAT’S BRAZIL, RUSSIA, INDIA, CHINA, AND NOW THEY’VE BROUGHT SOUTH AFRICA; SINCE THE YEAR TWO THOUSAND, THEY’VE BEEN ABOUT TWENTY PERCENT OF THE WORLD ECONOMY, BUT ABOUT FIFTY PERCENT OF THE WORLD’S INCREMENTAL GROWTH.  AND BECAUSE THEY’VE BEEN GROWING ECONOMIES, THEY’RE DEMANDING FOOD, FIBER AND FUEL.  AND OF COURSE HERE IN THE MIDWEST AND OTHER REGIONS OF THE COUNTRY THAT PRODUCE FOOD, FIBER AND FUEL, THOSE ECONOMIES ARE SAYING, WHAT RECESSION?  AND IT’S ALL LINKED TO THOSE BRIT NATIONS.  AND SO THE BRIT NATIONS HAVE A TREMENDOUS IMPACT ON PARTICULARLY AGRICULTURE AND RURAL AMERICA.

ROB:  YES, AND ONCE AGAIN, AGRICULTURE AND OIL ARE OUR TWO BIG INDUSTRIES HERE IN THE STATE.

KOHL:  ABSOLUTELY; YOU TAKE THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA, IT IS DOING VERY WELL AND I’LL ADD MINERALS AS WELL.  AND WHAT WE’RE SEEING IS, IT USED TO BE FARMERS AND RANCHERS WERE ASSET RICH AND CASH POOR.  TODAY, THEY’RE ASSET RICH AND CASH RICH, AND THAT’S AN INTERESTING COMBINATION THAT WE’VE NEVER SEEN BEFORE FOR AN EXTENDED PERIOD OF TIME.

ROB:  I WANT TO TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE ISSUES THAT EVERYONE SEEMS TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT WITH OUR ECONOMY.  AND I WANT TO START OFF WITH HOUSING.  WE’VE SEEN THE HOUSING BUBBLE BURST, AND IT SEEMS LIKE IT’S HAVING A REALLY HARD TIME, THAT MARKET, TRYING TO GET BACK ON ITS FEET.

KOHL:  IT SURE IS, AND IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, THE HOUSING MARKET’S VERY CRITICAL TO THE U S ECONOMY.  IT’S ONE IN SEVEN JOBS IN AMERCIA ARE SOMEHOW TIED TO HOUSING.  AND WHAT WE FIND IS THAT THE HOUSING INDUSTRY IS REALLY STRUGGLING BECAUSE WE HAVE A HIGH UNEMPLOYMENT LEVEL.  BUT WE ALSO HAVE ANOTHER ELEMENT, BABY BOOMERS, LIKE MYSELF, ARE SHIFTING DOWN, WE WANT A SMALLER HOUSE.  OH BUT THE YOUNGER GENERATION, WE’RE HERE AT THE OKLAHOMA STATE UNIVERSITY CAMPUS, BUT IT’S HAPPENING AT ALL CAMPUSES, THEY’RE LOADED UP WITH UNIVERSITY DEBT.  AND SO WHAT WE HAVE IS THAT YOUNGER GENERATION IS GETTING MARRIED LATER IN LIFE, THEY HAVE THE UNIVERSITY DEBT TO CONTEND WITH AND SO THE FORMATION OR THE PURCHASE OF HOUSING IS BEING DELAYED, YOU KNOW APPROXIMATELY TEN TO FIFTEEN YEARS.

ROB:  SO ESSENTIALLY THEY BOUGHT THEIR FIRST HOUSE BY GOING TO SCHOOL.

KOHL:  ABSOLUTELY, ABSOLUTELY.  AND IF YOU LOOK AT IT, THE TYPICAL UNDERGRADUATE’S COMING OUT WITH TWENTY-FOUR THOUSAND DOLLARS WORTH OF DEBT, THIRTY-FOUR HUNDRED DOLLARS CREDIT CARD, BUT MANY OF THEM ARE GOING TO PROFESSIONAL SCHOOL WHERE THEN THE DEBT EXCEEDS A HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS.  LET’S PUT IT THIS WAY, THAT’S EITHER A GOOD DOWN PAYMENT OR THAT IS A LOT OF EARNINGS THAT ARE GOING TO HAVE TO GO FOR THE REPAYMENT OF THAT UNIVERSITY DEBT IN A TIGHT JOB MARKET.  AND THAT’S REALLY, REALLY TOUGH.

ROB:  LET’S TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT TIGHT JOB MARKET, UNEMPLOYMENT.  I MEAN, WE’RE SEEING SOME IMPROVEMENTS, BUT IT’S SO SLOW.  ARE WE FACING JUST A NEW NORMAL?

KOHL:  YOU KNOW I HATE TO SAY A NEW NORMAL, A NEW PLATEAU, BECAUSE I KIND OF LECTURE AGAINST THAT, BUT IT’S ALMOST A NEW NORMAL IN A SENSE THAT OUR UNEMPLOYMENT RATE, ROB, HAS STAYED ABOVE EIGHT PERCENT THE LONGEST PERIOD SINCE THE GREAT DEPRESSION.  AND WHAT’S HAPPENING IS, YOU LOOK AT COMPANIES, THEY’RE BASICALLY TAKING ON AUTOMATION TO GET THE PRODUCTIVITY.  YOU KNOW WHAT THE OTHER ELEMENT IS?  BABY BOOMERS, LIKE MYSELF, SAW THEIR 401Ks GO TO 101Ks, SO WE HAVE TO STAY IN THE WORKFORCE LONGER.  AND SO YOU’VE GOT THAT COMBINATION OF ELEMENT, AND THEN THE THIRD ELEMENT IS THAT THE WORKFORCE OUT THERE IS JUST NOT EDUCATED TO BE, YOU KNOW, PRODUCTIVE.  AND YOU TAKE THAT COMBINATION IN THERE; THAT BASICALLY BODES FOR HIGH UNEMPLOYMENT.  AND WHILE IT WAS JUST REPORTED IT WAS NINE PERCENT, THE REAL UNEMPLOYMENT RATE WHEN YOU INCLUDE U3 THROUGH U6 WORKERS, IT WAS SIXTEEN-POINT-TWO PERCENT, I MEAN ONE IN SIX AMERICANS IS BASICALLY UNDEREMPLOYED OR UNEMPLOYED.  AND I REALLY DON’T SEE THAT CHANGING A WHOLE LOT.  AND TO REALLY BRING THAT BACK, IT’S GOT TO BE SMALL BUSINESS, AND SMALL BUSINESS HAS GOT TO, YOU KNOW, HIRE INDIVIDUALS TO BRING IT BACK.

ROB:  AND THAT’S WHERE WE ARE SEEING A LOT OF THE INNOVATION?

KOHL:  OH, ABSOLUTELY.  IF YOU LOOK AT INNOVATION IN AMERICA, OFTEN TIMES IT DOESN’T COME FROM CORPORATE AMERICA, IT COMES FROM THE SMALL COMPANIES.  BECAUSE THE SMALL COMPANIES CAN BE CREATIVE; YOU DON’T HAVE THE BUREAUCRATIC RED TAPE.  AND SO WHAT WILL FREQUENTLY HAPPEN IS, INNOVATION OCCURS WITH THE SMALL COMPANIES AND THEN EVENTUALLY LARGE COMPANIES BUY THAT OUT.  AND THAT’S WHY I ENJOY TEACHING SMALL BUSINESS ENTREPRENEURSHIP AT VIRGINIA TECH FOR THAT NUMBER OF YEARS, BECAUSE THAT’S WHERE THE IDEAS COME IN, AND THAT’S WHERE THE ENERGYS COME.

ROB:  AND THAT OLD NECESSITY IS THE MOTHER OF INVENTION.

KOHL:  OH IT IS; IT IS.  AND YOU KNOW ANOTHER THING THAT’S VERY CRITICAL?  SOMETIMES YOUR BEST INNOVATION COMES WHEN YOUR BACK’S AGAINST THE WALL, BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX, AND YOU HAVE TO THINK CREATIVELY.  AND WE’VE GOT A WHOLE YOUNGER GENERATION HERE, ABOUT SIXTY PERCENT OF THIS YOUNGER GENERATION IS VERY, VERY, THEY HAVE OLD TIMEY WORK SKILLS, BUT THEY’RE VERY, VERY CREATIVE.  A LOT OF THOSE FOLKS, WHAT WE’VE GOT TO DO IS RALLY BEHIND THEM, BECAUSE THEY CAN BRING THAT NEXT WAVE OF INNOVATION.

ROB:  CERTAINLY.  NOW YOU JUST FINISHED SPEAKING TO A GROUP HERE AT OKLAHOMA STATE UNIVERSITY THAT HAD A LOT OF OKLAHOMA BANKERS IN THE AUDIENCE.  PROBABLY IN NO TIME IN MY MEMORY HAVE BANKERS BEEN LESS POPULAR.  DID THE BANKING INDUSTRY DRIVE OUR ECONOMY INTO THE GROUND?

KOHL:  I’LL ANSWER THAT YES, AND NO.  AND IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, WE HAVE ABOUT SEVENTY-FIVE HUNDRED BANKS IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND ABOUT THREE THOUSAND OF THEM THAT LOAN TO AGRICULTURE IN RURAL AMERICA, MANY FAMILY-OWNED BANKS.  WHAT REALLY GOT US INTO TROUBLE WAS SOME OF OUR SHADOW BANKS, IN OTHER WORDS LEHMAN BROTHERS, YOU KNOW, GEE.  AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPENED WAS, WE GOT AWAY FROM SOUND LENDING PRINCIPLES, NO MONEY DOWN, INTEREST ONLY.  AND THOSE WEREN’T SOUND BANKING PRACTICES AND SO WHAT’S HAPPENED IS, WE HAVE DEVELOPED REGULATION THAT BASICALLY COVERS THE WHOLE BANKING INDUSTRY AND IT PENALIZES SOME OF THE FOLKS THAT WERE NOT THE PROBLEM IN THE FIRST PLACE.  ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I’LL JUST HAVE TO SAY, I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE OUGHT TO DO IS ENFORCE THE REGULATIONS THAT ARE ALREADY ON THE BOOKS AND WE DID NOT DO THAT, AND SO THAT REALLY GOT US INTO THE TERRIBLE MESS.  SO IT’S NOT THE BANKING INDUSTRY IN GENERAL; IT WAS A CERTAIN SEGMENT OF THAT BANKING INDUSTRY, AND WHAT HAPPENED WAS WE DIDN’T ENFORCE THE REGULATIONS THAT WERE ON THE BOOK.

ROB:  AND WE TOOK SOME REGULATION OFF THE GLASS-STEAGALL?

KOHL:  RIGHT, EXACTLY!  AND YOU KNOW GLASS STEAGALL WAS SET UP DURING THE GREAT DEPRESSION TO SEPARATE INVESTMENT BANKING AND, YOU KNOW, GENERAL BANKING.  WE TOOK THAT OFF, AND UNFORTUNATELY WE TRIED TO PUT EVERYONE IN A HOME.  AND EVERYBODY DESERVES AN OPPORTUNITY TO BE IN A HOME, BUT YOU HAVE THE ACCOUNTABILITY TO RESPONSIBILITY TO PAY IT BACK IF YOU CAN.  AND THERE’S ALWAYS SOME UNFORTUNATE CIRCUMSTANCES.  AND THEN WE HAD THESE EXOTIC LOAN PACKAGES.  THAT WAS A COMBUSTIBLE MIX THAT BASICALLY CREATED A BUBBLE IN THE REAL ESTATE AND HOUSING MARKET, AND THAT BUBBLE WAS FELT THROUGHOUT THE WORLD, BECAUSE AGAIN, TODAY, WE’RE SO GLOBALLY INTERCONNECTED.

ROB:  AS SOMEONE THAT DOES WHAT YOU DO, ARE YOU OFTEN SURPRISED BY THE THINGS THAT POP UP IN YOUR CRYSTAL BALL LOOKING OUT AT THE FUTURE?

KOHL:  YES, IT IS, AND YOU KNOW, I’LL MAKE THIS SAYING, THE OLDER I GET THE MORE I TRAVEL, THE LESS I KNOW.  AND WHEN YOU HAVE THIS CRYSTAL BALL, YOU KNOW IT’S FUNNY, OFTEN TIMES IT’S THE CONVSION OF EVENTS.  AS I TOLD THE AUDIENCE THIS MORNING, PREDICTING ECONOMICS IS ABOUT LIKE PREDICTING WEATHER.  IT’S NOT ONE EVENT, IT’S HOW THEY ALL COME TOGETHER.  BUT THEN THERE’S THAT ONE UNUSUAL BLACK SWAN OR UNUSUAL EVENT THAT BASICALLY IS THE COMBUSTIBLE MIX THAT EITHER CREATES THE CHANGE, OR CREATES THE POSITIVE, OR CREATES THE NEGATIVE OUT THERE.  AND AS I TELL GROUPS, IT’S NOT THE RISK THAT GETS YOU INTO TROUBLE; IT’S WHAT THEY CALL THE TAIL RISK.  IT’S THAT UNUSUAL EVENT.  AND SOMETIMES THAT’S VERY DIFFICULT.  BUT YOU KNOW WHAT, IT MAKES ECONOMICS FUN.  IT’S ALMOST LIKE EVERYDAY THE WEATHER SOMETIMES CHANGES AND EVERYDAY ECONOMICS CHANGES AND YOU KNOW AS WE VISITED EARLIER ON KEEPING AN EYE ON THIS GLOBAL SITUATION, YOU HAVE TO THINK GLOBALLY, AND ACT LOCALLY IN TODAY’S ENVIRONMENT.  AND TWENTY-FIVE YEARS AGO WHEN I WAS INVOLVED WITH ACADEMICS, WE DIDN’T NECESSARILY HAVE TO DO THAT.

ROB:  PROBABLY NOTHING’S MORE INTERCONNECTED THAN EDUCATION AROUND THE WORLD, BECAUSE WE’RE SEEING A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT DID COME TO THIS COUNTRY FOR THEIR HIGHER EDUCATION ARE ABLE TO STAY HOME NOW.  WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU ABOUT THE WAY WE TEACH AND WHAT WE TEACH HERE IN THE STATES?

KOHL:  YOU KNOW, IT’S REAL INTERESTING BEING AN EDUCATOR AND BEING YOU KNOW AT THE UNIVERSITY LEVEL AND I’M A PRODUCT OF COMMUNITY COLLEGE.  I STARTED OUT RURAL HIGH SCHOOL, BUILT MY CONFIDENCE AT COMMUNITY COLLEGE AND YOU KNOW, RECEIVED MY MASTERS AND DOCTORATE AT AN IVY LEAGUE SCHOOL, LIKE CORNELL UNIVERSITY.  THE STATE OF EDUCATION, IN AMERICA, AT THE UNIVERSITY LEVEL WE’RE STILL DOING, YOU KNOW, FAIRLY WELL, THOUGH WE’RE GOING TO HAVE SOME CHALLENGES, BECAUSE OF THIS UNIVERSITY AND STUDENT DEBT.  SOME OF THE ISSUES I SEE ARE PROBABLY AT THE HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL AND IN THOSE AREAS.  AND AGAIN, WHAT’S HAPPENING IS SOME PEOPLE BLAME THE TEACHERS, SOME OF THE PEOPLE BLAME THE ADMINISTRATORS OR THE PARENTS.  AND I THINK WHAT WE’RE GOING TO HAVE TO DO IS RALLY AROUND AND MAKE, ACTUALLY, STUDENTS ACCOUNTABLE TO THEMSELVES.  AND YOU KNOW WHAT I OFTEN TELL STUDENTS, IF YOU, YOU KNOW, WANT TO TO GO AND SLOUGH OFF IN SCHOOL OR QUIT SCHOOL WHICH MANY OF OUR AMERICAN STUDENTS ARE DOING, THERE’S KIDS IN INDIA AND CHINA THAT ARE GOING TO HAVE YOUR JOBS.  AND THAT’S EVENTUALLY GOING TO IMPACT OUR STANDARD OF LIVING, SO.  ONE OF THE THINGS FROM AN EDUCATIONAL STANDPOINT, WE’RE PROBABLY GOING TO HAVE TO HAVE A REMAKE AND A REVAMP OF EDUCATION PROGRAMS IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.  AND THE OTHER ELEMENT IS, WE MIGHT HAVE TO FOLLOW THE EUROPEAN MODEL, NOT ALL KIDS HAVE TO GO TO UNIVERSITY AND COLLEGE.  THERE’S NOTHING WRONG WITH VOCATIONAL AND TECHNICAL SCHOOL, AND OFTEN TIMES THAT IS SEEN AS KIND OF SECONDARY.  I FIND THAT, THAT’S GOING TO BE VERY IMPORTANT IN REMAKING AMERICA BACK INTO A STRONG ECONOMIC POWER.

ROB:  SO MORE OF AN EMPHASIS ON SKILLS TRAINING.

KOHL:  YES, ABSOLUTELY.  IT’S INTERESTING A NUMBER OF OUR STUDENTS THAT WILL GRADUATE FROM FOUR-YEAR SCHOOLS, LIKE OKLAHOMA STATE UNIVERSITY, OR VIRGINIA TECH, WHERE I’M FROM, WILL OFTEN HAVE TO GO BACK TO A TWO-YEAR SCHOOL TO GET A SKILL TO BE IN THE MARKET PLACE.  AND YOU KNOW, THE OTHER THING THAT’S INTERESTING ROB?  I THINK WE’RE GOING TO HAVE TO HAVE EMPHASIS ON ADULT EDUCATION AND PEOPLE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO BE LIFELONG LEARNERS.  I OFTEN TELL PEOPLE THAT THEY HAVE TO GET TWO-TO-SIX HOURS OF EDUCATION PER WEEK TO STAY ABREAST IN THE INFORMATION BASED SOCIETY.  AND SO I THINK WE NEED, YOU KNOW, JOB TRAINING FOR THE ADULT WORKFORCE AS WELL, AND PARTICULARLY FOR THESE FOLKS THAT ARE UNEMPLOYED.  BECAUSE IF THEY’RE OUT OF THE JOB MARKET FOR A YEAR OR MORE, ONE OF THE THINGS IS THEY’RE BASICALLY OBSOLETE INTO THE WORKFORCE.  AND SO THIS WHOLE IDEA OF EDUCATION IS PROBABLY GOING TO HAVE TO BE REVAMPED FOR THE FUTURE.

ROB:  WELL CERTAINLY AN INTERESTING WORLD WE LIVE IN.  I WANT TO LEAVE YOU WITH ONE FINAL QUESTION.  KNOWING THE THINGS THAT YOU SEE DAY IN AND DAY OUT, WHAT’S YOUR BEST ADVICE TO, SAY A PERSON, LE’T JUST SAY ANYONE, WHETHER THEY’RE COMING OUT OF SCHOOL OR THEY’RE GOING BACK AND MAYBE STARTING A NEW CAREER.

KOHL:  YES, MY BEST PIECE OF ADVICE WOULD BE THAT, KEEP THEIR EDUCATIONAL LEVELS UP, AND PARTICULARLY FOCUS ON SOME OF THE EVENTS THAT ARE GLOBAL.  IF IT’S A YOUNG PERSON YOU KNOW WHAT I TELL THEM, MAKE SURE THAT THEY GET ONE OR TWO INTERNSHIPS WHILE THEY’RE GOING TO SCHOOL OR COLLEGE, MAKE SURE TO GET IT OUT OF STATE, AND ONE OF THE INTERNSHIPS SHOULD COME OUT OF THE UNITED STATES.  AND IT’S NOT ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THE LANGUAGE; IT’S ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THE CULTURE.  CONSTANTLY BE A LIFELONG LEARNER IS ANOTHER SUGGESTION.  AND TO MY BUSINESS PEOPLE OUT THERE, I OFTEN SAY, YEAH, FOCUS ON BUSINESS BUT THEN THERE’S ANOTHER COMPONENT; IT’S NOT ALL ABOUT ROA, RETURN ON ASSETS, SOMETIMES IT’S ABOUT ROL, RETURN ON LIFE.  AND WHAT I FIND THAT SUCCESSFUL PEOPLE WILL DO IS, THEY’RE GOAL SETTERS, THEY WILL BALANCE THE BUSINESS AND THEIR LIFE, AND WHAT I FIND, SUSTAINABILITY PARTICULARLY, IN AN INDIVIDUAL OR IN SOCIETY IS ALL ABOUT THE BALANCE OF THAT RETURN ON LIFE; AND SO THAT’S THE ULTIMATE.  AND AS I TOLD THE GROUP THIS MORNING, THERE’S MORE OPPORTUNITY IN THE NEXT TEN YEARS THAN THERE’S BEEN IN THE PAST THIRTY YEARS, BUT WITH THAT OPPORTUNITY IS GOING TO COME RESPONSIBILITY.  AND THERE’S MORE OPPORTUNITY TO FAIL, AND SO WE’RE GOING TO HAVE TO STEP UP TO THE PLATE, NOT ONLY AS INDIVIDUALS, BUT WE’RE GOING TO HAVE TO STEP UP AS A COUNTRY AS WELL.

ROB:  AND I’VE HEARD MORE AND MORE PEOPLE SAY, ALL SUCCESS DOES COME WITH RISK.

KOHL:  YOU BEST BELIEVE IT; YOU BEST BELIEVE IT.  AND THERE’S NO SUCH THING AS NO RISK.  AND RISK CREATES OPPORTUNITY.

ROB:  ALRIGHT, DAVID KOHL, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

KOHL:  THANK YOU VERY MUCH.